I'm in the Philippines, there are no mechanics here, (NONE) and im usually pretty competent but I just cant work this stupid wiring diagram out.
Just bought the car from a lying ******* who continues to lie and assures me there were no issues before he sold it to me.
I have a temperamental no start condition which really only happens when hot, but has recently progressed to being also when warm and I think now its even progressing to jsut about 80% of the time, no start. So ive had to wire in a jumper lead to the starter solenoid to keep me going, But ive had enough of that Flintstones approach.
I have pulled the stupidly designed hidden secret starter motor out by removing the intake manifold and found that the starter had been replaced and they inserted a new terminal lug wiht the wire pushing up against the block to adapt the the different style of aftermarket connectors on the starter. I removed that and did it properly thinking i had found the culprit; only for the gods of mechanical engineering to remind me of the hell hole im in and i failed again on me in the worst possible time. The steering wheel has now snapped form me punching it in anger.

The Philippines model 2003 automatic CRV according to this diagram has a security starter cut relay in parallel with the standard automatic transmission Starter Cut relay.
Wiring Diagram - Honda CR-V 2002 2003 2004 2005
The security cut is obviously to stop someone hot wiring it in the steering column, and the Transmission range switch activated one is obviously for safety.
BUT THE DIAGRAM MAKES NO SENSE. It suggests that if either of the 2 relays are closed (activated), then the starter will work. You will see the security start relay part is in a box labelled PH,KK, im assuming that means my Philippines model has whats in that box PH.
You will see that teh starter solenoid gets its power from either of the 2 solenoids. Retarded. it just densest make any sense.
SO who can tell me, do i even have this security system cut solenoid?
F so where the hell is it.
The one under the dash behind the bottom of the steering wheel clicks when i put it in neutral or park so the transmission range switch and that relay are working fine.
I have managed to test the voltage of the solenoid starter supply during the failed state (while under load with key in (TRY TO START) position, and its only 5 volts, but that could be a normal result, i dont know enough to make any assumptions from that. When I remove the solenoid wire and test its voltage in the (TRY TO START) position , its a good health 12 Volts. But i know a thing or 2 about electricity, and I know that a severe resistance in the wire can sometimes only be revealed while under load doing a voltage drop test, so is this indicative of an issue upstream (wiring) or downstream,( inside the starter solenoid.)
I also notice that the diagram also shows 2 variants of starter motor. One (which includes my model apparently) has a diode in it, for the purposes of stopping the Back EMF from damagin the circuit board. Could this diode be failing and letting 7 volts through to ground when hot?
To make it all the more confusing, its not the original starter, its some complete hack job aftermarket which looks like its been there a little while. SO i dont even know if this aftermarket starter has such a diode. Probably not. its probably a case of DOES THIS STARTER FIT, YES, PUT IT IN. Whee its in the fail mode, I can start it by sending 12 volts straight form the battery to the solenoid through the stupid jumper wire ive wired in. SO that suggests maybe the diode is not a n issue, but it could be, because maybe a good solid unrestricted 12 volts shuts the diode.
I Know too much but too little u see.

I have already bypassed the transmission range switch, which is dangerous I know, but that rules that out.

Someone set me straight. im about to put it in the bin.

 

The two relays are not used at the same time. You either have a security unit in the vehicle or you don't.
You use one or the other relay not both. The diagram shows both for those who have different trims or accessories.


When the circuit is not under load, there is no current running through. So voltage can remain at 12 volts.
However, when the circuit is under load, there is a demand for current. The high resistance prevent the current flow and the voltage reading then drops (ie., 5 volts)
The test of the voltage at the solenoid supply during the failed state (while under load(try to start)) position is 5 volts due to high resistance before the test point.
So, it could be due to battery to fuse 20 (50 Amp), the wire to the ignition switch, the ignition switch, the wiring from the ignition switch to the relay, the relay, fuse box, wiring to the starter solenoid. Doubtful the diode is failing by letting 7 volts through. Diodes usually either open or short out. If short then would not work at all. No crank ever.

Yeah, the relay shown is just like the wire portion that shows MT (manual transmission). You either have the MT, or the security cut off, or auto trans relay there.
If your crv is automatic and has no security then only auto trans relay. It is only shown to let us know there are different types. Uses only one relay.

Having a wire on the solenoid to start engine means the starter is fine. I would check voltage at the relay socket in fuse box. Two pins should have 12 volts.
Test with circuit under load. Usually a test light would help see if the light stays bright. If stays bright (and test light provided enough of a load) then wiring going back to ignition switch would be good. If dims then ignition switch to the relay would be faulty. This will tell you which way to look for the corrosion/problem.

A first good step would be to clean up the battery posts and cable terminals. Follow the negative cable and clean the ground. Look for engine grounding strap and clean those too. This helps eliminate other issues. And is good practice.


You had a wire on the solenoid and used it to start the engine. Starter should be no problem.
And diode should be no problem. If opened then starter would still start but emf might become a problem.

 

Thank you avisitor. I came to the right place! Of all the years ive used forums, that is the most simple and straight to the point reply I've ever experienced. Thanks for taking the time.
I tell you, I wish they wrote an "or" between each of those relay diagrams, perhaps its an industry standard and one is expected to just know that when something looks like that in a diagram, they're all "or". For me,I have a PH - A/T, so therefor both those boxed elements are relevant to me, however every car ive ever owned (In australia) has used a fuel cut security system, and every single person ive ever helped with a failed security system has had a "crank but no fire" situation. I've never actually experienced a vehicle with a security starter motor cut. So now i wonder, who would the security starter cut be relevant to, if its not an A/T or a M/T, is there a magical kind of transmission unbeknown to me haha? only available in the PH and KK?

I know that the ignition switch on this model is known to be a problem and i think there's even a recall for them, i took the switch apart last night and found the outer ring had one contact which was nicely jizzed up with black gunk!
Is the switch meant to be full of some kind of grease? Its been smeared all over the copper contact rings, and is holding this black gunk in a nice wet mound over one of the points, which i am now guessing must be the starter point, and maybe I've found the issue!
It looks to me like, standard lithium automotive grease, but I could be wrong. Is it like that from the factory, perhaps a conductive paste? if so, its not doing its job because...
I put it back together after clearing that up and ..... and i cannot make it fail now. I think it was simply the switch, and im not sure how my brain led me to go down this complicated series of pointless analyses. Im blaming it on 2 kids, a stressful job and no time!

Thank you for clarifying!

 

Well, it seems you were able to figure this out on your own.
You only needed clarifying the diagram.
Good luck to you and hope it stays fixed.
That starter cut relay is usually connected to something like the transmission's park/neutral safety switch

 

Right, well I've not had much experience with dielectric grease, other than for what it is designed for. I use cheap Anti-Corrosion and Connector Gel (by super lube) to protect our telecom gear, but that stuff is set and forget. It seems kinda silly to have it inside a wearable copper switching component.
The very first page I see in google when I look up "dielectric grease" states the following:

Dielectric grease can also be applied to the metal parts of virtually any electrical connection that will be exposed to the elements to serve as a sealant that protects the connection from contamination and corrosion. This should be done very carefully, as the grease will cut off the flow of electricity through the connection if some of it is left between the mating surfaces. As always, we recommend working with your local auto mechanic when doing any maintenance on your vehicle.
Add a bit of non conductive microscopic grit to the mix and there you have a slippery 3 dimensional non conductive matrix with a thick body to it!
I'm tempted to remove it all, I dont think it has a place in a constantly moving high current (arcing) oxidising scenario.
Maybe this is the reason for all the recalls. My jungle jeep goes just fine in the harsh environment with no such grease!

 

Your anti-Corrosion and Connector gel sounds perfect for the job.
But, do whatever you think is best.
Me, I just buy a new ignition switch and replace it.
For my CRV 2007, It takes three screws on the bottom half of the steering column
And two more screws holding the ignition switch in place.
Took me ten minutes to replace it.

 

well, nah spoke to soon.
It's back.
So the key thing is that it happens almost 100% of the time when hot (after running), and about 30 percent of the time when cold.
Is there a system to disconnect the start when the car recognises it is running? im sure if i hold the key on start, after it starts it doesn't jsut keep starter engaged surely. Plus, when its running, im pretty sure u cant activate the starter.

Where is this system in all of this. if that was failed in an open position when hot that might explain it.
Otherwise, the entire wiring harness is just shot and doesn't work when hot, which is the opposite of all electrical theory ive learned, but this is the Philippines, the land god forgot, and physics and intellect play no part in this country and any machine that exists within it.

 

reading your last post, have you checked to see if your coil in the distributor has a hot spot. this will cause a no start after warm and sometimes when first start of the day. also when some members get a rebuilt distributor, it does the same thing due to the coil has a hot spot and is not checked at an aftermarket rebuild. ( just some info)

 

coil and distributor..... Say what? Are u talking about an ignition coil and ignition distributor? If so, good joke haha.

if not what , what are u reffering to.

 

As far as I know the Honda CRV 2003 has coil over plugs. No distributor.
Also, nothing to prevent the starter from being engaged after the engine is running
I could be wrong. I own a 2007 CRV.

When you got no start (hot or cold), does the engine crank?
If it does not (like before- wire going to the starter solenoid) then there is a problem in the starter circuit
Does connecting a jumper wire to starter solenoid still work to crank engine?
If not then starter is faulty.